Is it ethical to create "Free Willed Androids"

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smalk
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Re: Is it ethical to create "Free Willed Androids"

Post by smalk » Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:51 am

@Svengli: no, I'm just faking it in order to impress people in a forum. xD
Currently I'm publishing some work on graphical statistical models.

Forgive me, I don't understand your point in 2). You're talking about the same Church-Turing thesis that I know, in respect to the nature of the functions that are effectively calculable?

I prefer to assess your reasoning as an interesting philosophical conjecture on the topic.

You base your argumentation on the difficolties to modify / enhance directly the human brain. And in that I conjecture you're right. But you're missing the external enhancements.

Let me give you a point about trans-humanism: more than 50% of Americans live daily with a portable calculator more powerful than the one required to take a human to the moon. Research have shown that accidental breaks of this system (like in losing / breaking / having stolen the smartphone) can result in significant pain and short-therm loss of productivity for the human part. Big G's glasses are the new paradigm shift.

Just think at what would be the next levels.

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Re: Is it ethical to create "Free Willed Androids"

Post by daphne » Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:13 pm

I'm guessing none of you have ever had any children.

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Re: Is it ethical to create "Free Willed Androids"

Post by Svengli » Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:38 pm

smalk wrote:@Svengli: no, I'm just faking it in order to impress people in a forum. xD
Currently I'm publishing some work on graphical statistical models.
I wasn't asking as a challenge. Or perhaps, not just a challenge but also an invitation in the sense that I'd invite you to roll out whatever more sophisticated ideas you might have on this subject. Seriously, I think it would be really great to have a computer scientist discussing all this, though, correct me if I'm wrong, but I recognized that CS has mostly abandoned any goal of "hard AI", and I think that's sad in some ways (and comforting on other ways, as one might imagine).
Forgive me, I don't understand your point in 2). You're talking about the same Church-Turing thesis that I know, in respect to the nature of the functions that are effectively calculable?
Well, Church-Turing asserts, more or less, that any determinate computing process can be simulated by a recursive function or a Turing machine. Which is essentially asserting that "computation" is outside of human beliefs and viewpoints - for example, DNA is a computation system of sorts.
-- Anyway, that was a response to what I read earlier as an implication that computation was based on "human concepts". Perhaps you edited that reference or I misunderstood you but in any case, my main argument is that computation by itself isn't "human" or "not human" by itself.
Let me give you a point about trans-humanism: more than 50% of Americans live daily with a portable calculator more powerful than the one required to take a human to the moon. Research have shown that accidental breaks of this system (like in losing / breaking / having stolen the smartphone) can result in significant pain and short-therm loss of productivity for the human part. Big G's glasses are the new paradigm shift. Just think at what would be the next levels.
Hmm,
Maybe. The problem is I don't see any evidence smart phones make people smarter. Especially, I don't see any evidence always having a smart phone makes someone smarter than someone that sometimes consults Google but walks around without their laptop. Indeed, if the attitudes of the overall programming community are an indication, the server engineers who enable Android and Glass quite often aren't consumers of instant access and that doesn't prevent their activities. More Android and Glass might make you something but it doesn't seem to unambiguously make you smarter. Perhaps certain people can become "transhuman" in a fashion without being smarter as such but rather by being more "up-to-the-minute" or "tuned-in (to the whole of socio-economic-technological process)". Now that does seem like the way things are going. It is simply that I don't think that will lead much more than an intensification of what we have now.

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Re: Is it ethical to create "Free Willed Androids"

Post by Svengli » Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:46 pm

daphne wrote:I'm guessing none of you have ever had any children.
That may indeed the heart of the problem, especially if one were to consult Mary Daly. :? :timeout:

However, the logical structure of my argument would be "Hey, a human being raising a kid, even with all the in-born biological instincts that you'd expect would guide us, is an insanely difficult proposition. Now imagine conjuring an intelligent entity into existence and the entity not having any of the contexts of even a baby with a family. How nuts is that?"

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Re: Is it ethical to create "Free Willed Androids"

Post by smalk » Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:41 am

Svengli wrote: I wasn't asking as a challenge. Or perhaps, not just a challenge but also an invitation in the sense that I'd invite you to roll out whatever more sophisticated ideas you might have on this subject. Seriously, I think it would be really great to have a computer scientist discussing all this, though, correct me if I'm wrong, but I recognized that CS has mostly abandoned any goal of "hard AI", and I think that's sad in some ways (and comforting on other ways, as one might imagine).
Yep. That's sad, but it's how life (and academic research) works. In the '70 we where sure that conscient AI were just years away. We have accomplished a lot, but on specific and narrow fields.
Svengli wrote: Well, Church-Turing asserts, more or less, that any determinate computing process can be simulated by a recursive function or a Turing machine. Which is essentially asserting that "computation" is outside of human beliefs and viewpoints - for example, DNA is a computation system of sorts.
-- Anyway, that was a response to what I read earlier as an implication that computation was based on "human concepts". Perhaps you edited that reference or I misunderstood you but in any case, my main argument is that computation by itself isn't "human" or "not human" by itself.
I see this topic are refering the more broad question: is Mathematics "human"?
Anyway, I agree with you ;)

Svengli wrote: Hmm,
Maybe. The problem is I don't see any evidence smart phones make people smarter. Especially, I don't see any evidence always having a smart phone makes someone smarter than someone that sometimes consults Google but walks around without their laptop. Indeed, if the attitudes of the overall programming community are an indication, the server engineers who enable Android and Glass quite often aren't consumers of instant access and that doesn't prevent their activities. More Android and Glass might make you something but it doesn't seem to unambiguously make you smarter. Perhaps certain people can become "transhuman" in a fashion without being smarter as such but rather by being more "up-to-the-minute" or "tuned-in (to the whole of socio-economic-technological process)". Now that does seem like the way things are going. It is simply that I don't think that will lead much more than an intensification of what we have now.
With a smartphone, I can know my exact position on the earth at anytime. For any sailor of the last 19th century, this would be a "superpower".
Or else, I can "remember" almost any philosophical book with great precision. Again, for the past academics this would qualify as magic.

Just simple examples, but I think you got my point.
Last edited by smalk on Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:19 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Is it ethical to create "Free Willed Androids"

Post by Svengli » Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:37 am

Well,

I suppose the criteria I'd choose for an "enhancement that matters" would be whether an enhanced entity could manage large and complex projects in a notably superior way. More simply, "can it make you a better programmer." I tend to think smart phones, wearable computers or even more advanced but similar technologies, can do that.

I'm not picking this at random or because I think it's the most important thing about being human. Rather, these are what I think would be needed to produce an autonomously acting entity, say a fembot.

While the various enhancing devices and software that are appearing these days may be quite good for some thing and may qualify someone for the term "enhanced" in some senses or even magically powerful in some senses. And while there are ethical questions to enhancing a person, these are different questions than the questions involved in constructing an autonomously acting entity - and I kind of think that's because these are two somewhat different things.

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Re: Is it ethical to create "Free Willed Androids"

Post by dale coba » Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:06 am

From Makeuseof.com:

Here’s Why Scientists Think You Should be Worried about Artificial Intelligence
http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/heres-scie ... elligence/

The article is too long to repost! I can't vouch for the author's insight, but he clearly put his time into it.

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Re: Is it ethical to create "Free Willed Androids"

Post by --NightBattery-- » Tue Aug 05, 2014 4:49 pm

So, Freedom of tactics and means to achieve an imperative goal can be considered Free-will for artificial non biological…constructs?

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Re: Is it ethical to create "Free Willed Androids"

Post by darkbutflashy » Tue Aug 05, 2014 5:50 pm

Most of that article is a primer into AI for a public not neccessarily into the topic. The remaining part only scratches the problems we already discussed here (and we've done better, I think). The conclusion of the article is to put "human values" into the learning process of an AI, it then links to https://intelligence.org/files/CEV.pdf which is worth reading (and if only for the introducing Warning: Beware of things that are fun to argue)

But the real fun part is: that document is from 2004. There is newer material on the topic, which identifies the blogpost as hot air rather then hot stuff. If you want to read about the hot stuff, you better start at Wikipedia, where you get it without all the exaggeration.

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Re: Is it ethical to create "Free Willed Androids"

Post by dale coba » Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:03 pm

Dang, I'm not paying enough attention today.

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Re: Is it ethical to create "Free Willed Androids"

Post by Svengli » Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:53 pm

Well, I had a discussion on Facebook about the dangers of AI and being a lazy bastard I'll just rewrite my comments.

1. If "the singularity" is the idea that "we'll just hand off our future to robots, because evolution" (or something) then someone looking at that idea for a few seconds would have to say "hey wait a second".

2. However, the idea that an AI or a computer would inevitably do terrible things because of the unintended of consequences of an order like "make things good" itself has some holes in it. One way to delineate the difference between humans and present day fragile AI systems is to notice that if you ask a person to do something, they'll enter into a dialog with you about how you want it done, what the other consequences of the actions would be etc. This ability to dialog is characteristic of the complex, multidimensional intelligence that allows humans to deal with multiple dimensions of a complex world whereas present day AIs can so-far only deal with narrow, specialized domains.

Most people have something like a model of the person they're speaking with and will only follow a request without comment if they're sure the results would leave the person happy and unsurprised. If you ask another person to "close the door", if not surprising results were in store, they'd just close the door but something surprising would result, they'd say something like "but your cat is in the doorway" or something similar.

Now, if AIs are able to improve, they will need to gain flexible intelligence and with it will need to come a similar ability to dialog. Thus the AI won't do some idiot maneuver like just taking an order to create a utopia, it would follow in a similar to a human subordinate, giving it's programmer a summary of the implications of order X.

3. It's worth nothing the danger of AI isn't that it won't do what people want but that it will do what people want, because many people want horrible things.

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Re: Is it ethical to create "Free Willed Androids"

Post by Venitia » Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:24 am

as much as I'd love sentient, free willed AI to exist, I hope it'll never happen. what happens in Detroit : become human or HUMANS says it all..humans would use them for awful things like prostitution or war. humans would damage them so bad....it'd be irresponsible to bring someone to the world only to be used as an object!

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Re: Is it ethical to create "Free Willed Androids"

Post by Esleeper » Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:30 pm

Venitia wrote:as much as I'd love sentient, free willed AI to exist, I hope it'll never happen. what happens in Detroit : become human or HUMANS says it all..humans would use them for awful things like prostitution or war. humans would damage them so bad....it'd be irresponsible to bring someone to the world only to be used as an object!
Don't listen to that thinly veiled screed about slavery. Half of it is just hamfisted parallels to racial tensions that wouldn't even remotely be applicable to the reality of what would happen.

For a start, if robots were going to be made for such things without the clear expectation that they would be considered at least equal, they wouldn't even be made intelligent, let alone sentient. Sentient AI would only exist in situations where true companionship and human-equivalent intelligence would be absolutely necessary for it, and menial labor, prostitution, and war do not require those in the slightest. Those things need no more than what AI is capable of now- the ability to follow a strict set of rules in a manner where they can defer to a human operator for the rare situations that their programming does not cover. At most, they'd need no more mental capacity than a trained dog.

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Re: Is it ethical to create "Free Willed Androids"

Post by Stephaniebot » Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:47 pm

Esleeper wrote:
Venitia wrote:as much as I'd love sentient, free willed AI to exist, I hope it'll never happen. what happens in Detroit : become human or HUMANS says it all..humans would use them for awful things like prostitution or war. humans would damage them so bad....it'd be irresponsible to bring someone to the world only to be used as an object!
Don't listen to that thinly veiled screed about slavery. Half of it is just hamfisted parallels to racial tensions that wouldn't even remotely be applicable to the reality of what would happen.

For a start, if robots were going to be made for such things without the clear expectation that they would be considered at least equal, they wouldn't even be made intelligent, let alone sentient. Sentient AI would only exist in situations where true companionship and human-equivalent intelligence would be absolutely necessary for it, and menial labor, prostitution, and war do not require those in the slightest. Those things need no more than what AI is capable of now- the ability to follow a strict set of rules in a manner where they can defer to a human operator for the rare situations that their programming does not cover. At most, they'd need no more mental capacity than a trained dog.
Sad to say, that's still more mental capacity than I see from some humans on some forums. No, not this one, I might add, seems some sports talk seem to clog up human minds, lol, and make them non functional!
I'm just a 'girl' who wants to become a fembot whats wrong with that?

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