In an android world...

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Spaz
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In an android world...

Post by Spaz » Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:06 pm

This is a thread I'd like to start to hypothesize/brainstorm various concepts for a world populated entirely/mostly by androids. Specifically, how certain organic processes might be mimicked by artificial lifeforms.

For the first thing, I was pondering how with humans, we go about our days eating and consuming energy, creating perspiration and body odor as a result. In terms of sexual encounters, members of both genders can be attracted to a potential mate based on their pheromones, or scent.

What if, in an android world, androids/fembots generated a sort of electromagnetic field as a byproduct of their energy consumption, one that other androids could detect, sort of like an odor. Perhaps droids that don't properly tune their bodies up generate a bad field, or a bad odor, sort of like a lazy person who hasn't bathed. Cosmetic products could be purchased to help tune the field to a more pleasant frequency that could attract a potential mate or just keep people from being offended by you. Sort of an axe body spray, but for androids. Further, each android generates a unique frequency in and amongst themselves, one that could potentially create a love at first sight with a mate who happens to like that particular frequency.

Well, what do you think?
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Re: In an android world...

Post by --NightBattery-- » Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:37 pm

Wohoo, finally one of these threads!
Well...we need to attract between ourselves for our perpetuation.
What reason would the machines we left behind have to do something we made them do for our own gain and satisfaction?
Besides the not questioning of programing, like we do with our instincts.

But if you mean an android world like, cybertron from transformes where they were actually life forms, then anything is permitted.
If they reproduce and gestate then anything else is permitted, just like in the animal kingdom, where beings look for the better traits of their species in a potential mate, mostly unconsciously or persuaded by colors, power or soft roundy things.

If they are built then perhaps the most important is the programming of the new born? Maybe, just like us, they don't control their inner program and they need to give a copy of it to a new machine if it is meant to attain sentience.

Because, you know, if they are sentient then passive attractants are not going to be enough, unless it is quite overriding, but then there would be only selection on that attractant and not the intelectual-skill thingy traits.

Maybe machine sex would be something that would look more like sharing processing power to create a complex OS, but how to reconcile that with the need of making it look like sex and not an Asimov story?

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Re: In an android world...

Post by Spaz » Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:20 pm

Let us then suggest that like with biological lifeforms, androids need to pass on their codes. Perhaps there are dozens, maybe even hundreds of A.I. variants, much in the same way that humans have 8 blood types. Maybe rare A.I. variants are less susceptible to viruses that crop up from time to time, or certain A.I. variants are less desirable due to issues with bugs.

Evolution then would occur much more quickly with androids, because with each generation, codes would become more diverse and adaptive.
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Re: In an android world...

Post by dale coba » Sat Jul 11, 2015 3:48 am

Humans are very inefficient.

Androids will not bother with much of our nonsense.

Human odor is a communication system.
- Who smells the most female-tastic? Who smells the most male-riffic?
(they will make the best offspring).
- Who smells of disease?

To determine the answers to those questions, Androids would have better methods - if it even makes sense to have a parallel method. Androids are not "just like us, only different". Some aspects have no analog.

Whatever "offspring" means in the android world, would there be a "smell"? A smell is like a sound - if you are there, you do not avoid learning the information. You can go smell someone up close, use your nose to "ask" if a smell is present.

Smell is advertising, but honest. You can wash off a smell, but yours comes from the inside. You can't easily alter that fundamental smell, without it reflecting truth, new illness or a return to health.

I don't think it's in an individual unit's interest to have an odor-analog. I don't think you could trust the signal. We necessarily sweat, an odor is an unavoidable property resulting from our "design". Evolution said, "Since odor is a thing, to what uses may "odor" be put, so as to create more yummy, yummy survival-of-the-fittest action?"

Androids will not "leak" information like a smell. They will likely have an infrared signature, and may or may not be shielded, determining their susceptibility to electromagnetic detection. What other unavoidably engineered properties will these units have, which also unavoidably leaks information?

Personal odors are a primitive way to advertise desirability for procreation.
Personal odors are beyond us to alter (not mask).
Personal odors tell those present about your diseases (possibly otherwise secret).

I can't find any close parallel between what odor does for humans and what androids need done, and how to do it.

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Re: In an android world...

Post by --NightBattery-- » Sat Jul 11, 2015 8:11 am

Remember that time of eve...japanese cartoon thing where androids had a holographic tiara with some lines pretending to be information?
Image

Maybe highly energy wasting technologies that we do not master perfectly could be added and explained to be more efficient for them that have evolved/enginner on them for long term like holographic technology and nuclear fusion/fision.
perhaps some status display that the android cannot hide is shown once it has completed some kind of cicle for the creation of a new Ai based on itself, and machine sex is an interchange of information for more than that purpose.
perhaps some tanglible piece of information in the form of a solid hologram could be the equivalent of a recently created Ai and that the real body is required to be planed later on.

--NightBattery--

Re: In an android world...

Post by --NightBattery-- » Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:56 pm

Hi spaz. Sorry to bring this thread back from the dead.
I hope you still in for some ideas.
I have been reading about anemonefishes.

you know, fish such as the clown fish that use anemones as hosts to protect themselves from predators.

I am pretty sure you must have seen Pixar’s Nemo. The movie particular specie almost went extinct as the demand for pet fish skyrocketed : D
(aah, love creates the greatest tragedies)

They have a very interesting life cycle, they are all born as male, as immature males with certain shape and form living all together from whatever they can get among anemones being prey for predators and what not under the motto of safety in numbers…. As a big eunuch family.

Eventually leading males, the more fit and large, will become females, create a territory and obtain a mate to establish a monogamous relationship.

The presence of those females suppress the growth of their mates. If the female die the male partner will turn into female and look for another partner if there isn’t another available female to stablish an heterosexual relation.
They have evolved this way because their environment is dangerous full of predators. They suffer a constant “movement danger” outside their hosts. There also other species where all are born as female and species were it is only possible to predict individual sex based on social relationships. fish are gender fluid for real.

Some birds also suffer sexual changes based on their social status, there are even males that suffer shape and color changes and are meant to be copulated by other males since they are not dominant enough, there is a popular drawn meme about it.

I think a similar social system could be imagined for a hypothetical world of artificial life forms. It could prevent overpopulation of immortal sentient machines and give sexuality or displays or smells or whatever a meaning in a world of robots by not giving it to everybody.

unlike in humans that are programed equally to compete; and every time our life span becomes larger because of our sentience and biological needs we get closer to an apocalyptic planetary collapse : D

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Re: In an android world...

Post by Murotsu » Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:08 pm

This covers a lot of ground. Starting with gender:

There has to be a reason for more than one gender to be present. The reason(s) can be very diverse. The most obvious in terms of a robotic society would be functional. Another might be to improve survival.

So, you might have male and female for those reasons. An example might be the male is more durable, has more endurance, and is better able to respond in situations needing decisiveness and autonomous thinking. The female by comparison has far more memory to retain the data of society, has better sensors, and is better able to work in groups.
The exact reasons aren't critical here, and that's just one example of a possibility. The concept is that this society needs both genders to survive and procreate. Both offer different and mutually beneficial things meaning that the two genders must interact and also have a need, and reliance, on the other to accomplish the overall needs of society.

I could see things like a male and female operating system. The two are very different.. Think something like one uses Windows and the other Unix or Apple... but, the two also can interact when necessary to exchange information and function together. This would strengthen the society as it limits damage from hacking and viruses. It would potentially also mean that there are two points of view on any issue.

Another area might be the male and female computer systems are set up differently. Let's say the male uses a single (or few) powerful processors to do stuff. This makes his system highly resistant to extraneous influences and very focused on producing a result. The female system on the other hand might use multiple processors making her system better at multitasking but prone to overload (smaller processors but more of them) and potentially leading to confusion and inaction in critical situations. Again, each has their strength and weakness but together they function more efficiently than either alone would.

In a robotic society would also seem likely that they would have a much different range of sensor inputs along with the capacity to communicate in ways humans could not. If the two genders above were to communicate electronically, I could see the two creating two parallel systems that are separate and only interact to a limited degree as necessary for each gender to work with the other.

The degree to which such a society needed to look human would depend more on how it interacts with humans than it would with other droids. This would also be predicated on the social hierarchy of the two. If humans were paranoid of robots / droids, they likely would place restrictions on their ability to act independently as well as require obvious markers and means to identify who is who. If on the other hand, this wasn't the case, the two might look very similar or be indistinguishable. Revealing one's self in this sort of society might even be considered rude or unnecessary social behavior.

I'd think the degree to which a robotic / android society needed sexual intimacy of the sort practiced by humans would be a function of how much they had to interact with humans. After all, the requirements for affiliation and intimacy between bots or droids could be very, very different.

Then comes the difference in consumption to stay "alive." An android society would need a constant, reliable, source of electrical power to keep their bodies functioning. They would have zero need for human food (unless they too used it to produce energy in some manner). The exact method could vary quite a bit. They might have fuel cells that convert some portable fuel to energy for them and need regular refueling. Or, they might use batteries and recharge from an external electrical source. Another possibility is a nuclear battery that lasts years before needing a change. There's potentially other means too.
How much energy they'd need is open to question as well.
They'd also probably want to try to minimize their energy use so they likely would do everyday things differently. They might minimize body movements that are, in their view, unnecessary and just consume energy. Since exercise would likely be just an energy consuming task they'd avoid making any movements that require it, unlike humans.

Like I said, it's a very complex issue.

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Re: In an android world...

Post by Spaz » Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:55 pm

I'm glad people are still interested in this concept...let's just say I've been integrating many of these into my ongoing Uncanny Valley story collection (of which I am still working on). One major theme I have is that, you'd have to figure there'd be almost as many different types of android as there are automobiles. As such, inter-marriage would lead to complex deviations from set A.I. software and hardware specs and could lead to basic machine evolution. Also, I treat each model as though it's like a Human blood type, and how a potential computer virus might affect each A.I. type.

Also, there need not even be genders, since androids could easily reproduce asexually.
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Re: In an android world...

Post by Murotsu » Sat Jan 21, 2017 6:08 pm

On the power issue... Just how much power would a well designed humanoid robot require? Humans use something between 1 and 2 kWh of power. Let's say our bot uses 2. With a battery, voltage then becomes the first critical issue. The higher the voltage used, the lower the amperage. This means smaller and lighter wiring and other circuitry. Multiple voltages might be necessary, and AC and DC power might be needed as well.
After that, the question is "How long is our bot going to run before needing refueling or recharging?" Refueling would be a relatively quick process. Recharging a battery is dependent on the amount of power you can cram into it in a given time. Most batteries take quite a while to recharge.
Let's say ours will run 16 hours. That means 32 kWh of power minimum, and more like probably 36 to 40 to give a reserve margin. At 120 VAC input that works out for a 40 hour charge to about 334 ampere hours, or about 267 ampere hours for the 16 hour runtime. For a standard US receptacle at 15 amps that's a 18 hour recharge time... Clearly unacceptable.
European 220/440 or US commercial 240 /480 would be better. At 480 volts you get down to about four and half hours, still pretty long.
It would be almost a certainty that battery swaps would be the way to go here.

Fuel cells would be a better choice, depending on the fuel used. You might need more frequent refueling, but given a time of minutes to do so that would likely be acceptable.

As for the Uncanny Valley, one issue it really doesn't cover is commonality. If a human looking robot / android was present in large numbers... that is common in society... then any differences might be ignored simply because they're seen frequently enough nobody really notices. An example of this might be the third brake light on vehicles. This was originally mandated on a study that showed it improved safety. The problem was, once most, if not all cars had it, the unique qualities disappeared and its effectiveness as a safety device disappeared. People got used to seeing it. A humanoid robot would be no different I'd think.

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Re: In an android world...

Post by Saya » Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:05 pm

I've always been rather fascinated by a notion I once heard of in a tabletop RPG (that may or may not be the originator of this term) called "Artificial Grounded Intelligence". Effectively, this is a sort of Artificial Intelligence that is restricted in some ways so that an A.I. develops in ways that we would consider "personable". This might sound like a bad thing, but the way I understand it is that it would replicate certain biological and psychological developments in a human mind, thus making them more like humans in mentality and personality.

That said, I don't see them being exactly like humans. For one thing, one item I have always seen as different in a hypothetical human-like AI is in regards to sex and gender. In humans, sex is an extremely intimate, personal thing. It's the process by which we create more humans, and hence our society places a lot of importance on both the act and its consequences. There are very few humans that would, for instance, have sex with others for purely sexual reasons without the desire to form a more lasting, personal relationship, or without incentive. I see that in regards to sex, an AGI would regard it more as a pleasurable activity, even as a means of recreation, and perhaps find intimacy in other, less physical means.

Sexual orientation would be quite fluid. I imagine that in my hypothetical universe, the AGI's would be bisexual by default, with heuristic development or user input defining stricter sexual orientation settings over time or as desired.

Gender identity too would be more fluid. While there may be a preference for a body and its physical features if the android or robot in particular developed in a body with those features, I imagine the notions of gender would have far less biological reinforcement. While the notion that "I developed in a female frame and am optimized for the female anatomy" might be a part of an android's mind, the concept of "I am this specific gender" would not necessarily apply. Nudity may or may not be an issue for them, or issues for different reasons. Part of this may be that for certain models, their 'nude' bodies might be identical in terms of features or details for other androids in their production run, save whatever changes their owners make.

A sense of modesty and decorum would be required in certain jobs or roles, but given the need to remove clothing for exams, or for other tasks that require the removal of clothing, there would probably be only a few universal norms regarding modesty to keep them from going nude in public.

I would imagine that most androids would be able to engage in human activities for the purposes of social interaction, hence eating human food would be more of a social activity than something necessary. Unless there's a quirk in an android's programming, I can't see them going on a midnight fridge raid. Exercise, such as going to a gym or out for a run might be a good opportunity to test its motor functions and run calibration tests and what not. Power needs would likely be electrical or electro-chemical, though purely electrical seems the most likely. In the case of the later, what could provide them with that reaction might not be edible, or even taken in the same way that a human eats food or breathes in oxygen.

I would imagine that an extremely intimate activity for a machine like an android is the opening of service panels or disassembly. There would be few things more personal, I would imagine, than for an android to share with another their operating systems, as this is what makes them very obviously artificial. Seeing as how I imagine a priority for any AGI in an android body would be to pass for human. Plus, I just imagine it could be seen as a more invasive and less routine matter than having one's clothing removed, which most of us do every day and some of us do for a living. A gynoid with a job as a stripper, for instance, might be 'used' to being naked in front of others, but it would be less likely to remove panels or disassemble itself for that purpose. Personally, I'd imagine they'd find it rather exciting under the proper circumstances. Still, it may depend on the android.

I also tend to imagine that there would be certain other restrictions. Fear and pain seem somewhat unnecessary to me, and could be replicated with programming or system notifications. It strikes me that designers might debate on making a machine capable of "suffering" in the same way a human can and that most would probably find the idea objectionable.
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Re: In an android world...

Post by dieur » Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:15 pm

Fear and pain seem somewhat unnecessary to me, and could be replicated with programming or system notifications. It strikes me that designers might debate on making a machine capable of "suffering" in the same way a human can and that most would probably find the idea objectionable.
I listened to a podcast on a woman with no fear. She could intellectually comprehend of harm, but did not feel the emotion fear. They carefully guarded her identity, because it was really easy to take advantage of her. If your AIs are going to be grounded in a human-like mentality then they need those emotions to function. You could maybe cap them (do you _really_ need to be capable of experiencing more-pain-than-any-mortal-can-comprehend?), but you'd need them.

Having AI intellects that pursue totally abstract goals ("this course of action could harm me. It is illogical to be harmed without other consequences, so I will not pursue it") sounds like a good way to run afoul of AI alignment and end up with a world made of paper clips.

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