Is it ethical to create "Free Willed Androids"

General chat about fembots, technosexual culture or any other ASFR related topics that do not fit into the other categories below.
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Re: Is it ethical to create "Free Willed Androids"

Postby smalk » Wed Jul 16, 2014 8:09 am

As a computer scientist, I believe that Singularity will come from a trans-human mind (human mind enhanced with technology), as opposed to coming from an artificial mind (technology where you inject human concepts). Presumably, the first ones to attain first-humanism will be the Fortune 50 CEO's. My bet is on the economical business. You can develop further my point about the future on your own - not so spectacular as Skynet's nukes, but likewise terrifying. Good luck trying to prevent that.

So, me playing with a fembot in my garage trying to make her beat me at Go? Really not so important.

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Re: Is it ethical to create "Free Willed Androids"

Postby dale coba » Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:49 am

smalk, as you say the true A.I. will become available to only a few, after which [smashy-smashy, B00M, etc.] There wouldn't be enough time between invention and calamity.

So long as your gal isn't [whatever true A.I. is], I see no problem ethically whatsoever; but I think you will need a bunker rather than a garage.

- Dale Coba
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Re: Is it ethical to create "Free Willed Androids"

Postby smalk » Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:56 am

dale coba, trans-humanism doesnt'd deal with "true" A.I., it deals with enhancement of the human body thanks to technology.

I conjecture that a really intelligent super-mind would find no real utility in a destroyed world. An Orwellian world (1984) is far more profitable.

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Re: Is it ethical to create "Free Willed Androids"

Postby darkbutflashy » Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:44 pm

dale coba wrote:
darkbutflashy wrote:The only question for me is if the AI we talk about counts as "human life".

Do you need a dictionary? That ain't human, under any definition or circumstances.

I don't think a dictionary helps defining things yet nonexistant. If that's your level of argument, yes, I don't think it's possible for you to get through to me. Sorry.

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Re: Is it ethical to create "Free Willed Androids"

Postby darkbutflashy » Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:45 pm

Keizo, I agree with your observations but like to get it clear that my argument was, and still is, that our own ethics is blasted away if we talk about "the whole picture" instead of the individual's grip of the problem. That is because we can't observe "the whole picture" and even less so if fundamental facts are still unknown.

To take a current example which has the potential to destroy our own livelihood, let's discuss transgenic organisms. Is it "ethical" to create those? If so, which features should be allowed and which shouldn't?

No, don't let us discuss this. Please don't. :mrgreen:

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Re: Is it ethical to create "Free Willed Androids"

Postby DukeNukem 2417 » Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:22 am

dale coba wrote: What do you want, Huxley's "Brave New World"?


I think Styx did an album based on that book.... :mrgreen:

But seriously, folks...I, myself, am of the hopelessly naive type, but hopefully, even with my limited understanding of philosophy and/or reliance on TV Tropes, I can get a point across.

Within my own work, The V.I.C.I. Diaries, the ALPA (and, to a similar but somewhat different extent, the Coalition) exists to foster cooperation and understanding between humanity and machinekind. Vicki herself has shown how dangerous free will can be (remember the end of "Falling Away"? If not, go look it up right now), but at the same time, she's also shown the benefits of it. And while I'm thinking about it, let's think back to that whole SkyNET thing: SkyNET was A COMPUTER. Not an android progammed to think or feel like a human being, but A COMPUTER (probably a Dell, actually :lol: ). Take a machine that "thinks" using only cold logic, put it in charge of the nation's nuclear arsenal, and then freak out when it becomes self-aware? OF COURSE it's going to go all "nuke the world"!

So....yeah. Instead of going all "robots with free will are going to kill all of us", I say "robots with free will should receive the same lessons about morals and ethics that humans do". Yes, there are a bunch of idiots out there who probbly think that a robot uprising will happen right after we finish wiping out the zombie uprising (news flash, folks: ZOMBIES AREN'T GOING TO HAPPEN), but I prefer to be the "glass half full" type. Short answer: Yes, I think it is ethical to create free-willed androids....as long as we teach them well. You get what you give, after all....

Oh, and a bit of a tip, here: Whoever on this forum gets their robot girlfriend first, hide every Terminator movie you have (if you have any), otherwise she might think it's an educational film. :wink: :lol:
"No one steals our chicks.....and lives!"

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Re: Is it ethical to create "Free Willed Androids"

Postby dale coba » Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:16 am

There can be no bottle to hold the genie.
So don't make the genie.

- Dale Coba
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Re: Is it ethical to create "Free Willed Androids"

Postby Frostillicus » Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:51 am

I guess there isn't much more that can be said. I bow to all the pro-lifers superior logic.

Keizo... go to hell :P
Thaw me out when robot wives are cheap and effective.

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Re: Is it ethical to create "Free Willed Androids"

Postby Robotman » Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:26 am

dale coba wrote:There can be no bottle to hold the genie.
So don't make the genie.

- Dale Coba

This is where my thoughts are. In my opinion, there is enough destructive potential in giving our machines the ability to think and decide for themselves as there was in the creation of nuclear weapons. From that point on, we will have created another thing that can potentially bring us to extinction.

But the issue is way more complicated than nukes, and way more complicated than just the term "free will" would imply. "Free will" is not a binary on/off setting, and like AI, there will be different levels and manifestations of it. And yes, someone will do it. It's inevitable. It might not even be intentional. A fully-realized free-willed AI that is capable of replacing us on the food chain could accidentally come forth as an emergent property of a different computer system, one that did not have this as its intended purpose.

And free will is based largely on fulfillment of needs. The needs of robots, androids and AI systems will not be the same as the needs of humans, so I don't think it makes sense to compare our free will to what theirs might become. Nobody can know what would motivate a machine intelligence that had the AI capacity to decide things for itself. We can only speculate.

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Re: Is it ethical to create "Free Willed Androids"

Postby Svengli » Fri Jul 18, 2014 5:55 pm

smalk wrote:As a computer scientist, I believe that Singularity will come from a trans-human mind (human mind enhanced with technology), as opposed to coming from an artificial mind (technology where you inject human concepts).


1) Are you really a computer scientist? - I've got a fair amount of math and computer programming experience but I'm not a computer scientist in the sense of someone who is paid to research and publish papers about algorithms and related things. If you are, I'm curious what you're working on.

2) I think the Church/Turing thesis would assert that the concept of "programming" as such is independent from humanness and thus if you have a "programmed intelligence" there is no certainty that this programming is specifically human. "Just sayin'"

3) All this goes back to the history of humanity's "artificial intelligence" project. This history (encompassing only 15-50 totes) could be summarized thus. From 195? to 197?, a direct effort to produce AI was engaged in by the nascent programming community (MIT labs, shrdlu, lisp, etc). At the when AI seemed reasonably promising (1982) Japan's Ministry of International Trade and Industry began an effort to expand it to an "industrial scale" and at that point, the effort fell flat on it's face, producing an "AI winter" in the US and world where virtually all ordinary AI project went unfunded. Once the AI winter subsided, some projects remained but they generally labeled themselves "machine learning" or some other label needed to avoid the depricated tag AI. This resulted in the technologies of neural networks and HMMs (Ray Kurzweil's darlings) becoming the dominant approaches, despite these being nothing more than what might called "high level heuristics". I mean, neural networks are mathematically equivalent to SVMs, (support vector machines) and ultimately all SVMs is cleverly extrapolate a function's behavior on a high dimensional space which is cool but leaves extrapolation process in a state that can't be reasoned-about further - IE, a clever dead-ends.

4) The idea of simulating, enhancing, in any-way-modifying the brain has, over the last decade or so, been the substituted for taking the AI project seriously. The immediate problem, that is becoming more and more clear, is that any effort to the understand/modify/whatever the brain requires a mastery of vast-scale projects which only the possession of the real AI already could offer. I mean, the especially cool thing about intelligent is the ability to satisfy multiple constraints in multiple dimensions and aspects of any system whatsoever. We humans can do that but in encountering the brain, our own brain, we also encounter a thing where we have reached the limit of the reach of this ability. Computers haven't helped - everyone laughs/sneer/throws-things-at Henry Markram. Folks have rightly taken to pointing out that the human brain is the most complex thing in the known universe and by a wide margin. No, simulating/modifying the brain isn't an end-run around understanding cognition.
http://www.technologyreview.com/news/52 ... n-project/

5) Understanding cognition is hard but it's not impossible. I like some of Nicholas L. Cassimatis' arguments. See: http://aaaipress.org/ojs/index.php/aima ... /1879/1777

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